When Transformation Doesn’t Come Naturally….but it Comes Eventually. My interview with on the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Find Your Voice, Change Your Life Podcast

Podcast Host: Dr. Doreen Downing

Dr. Doreen Downing (0:38)

Hi, this is Dr. Doreen Downing and I’m a host of the Find Your Voice, Change Your Life podcast.

I invite guests who are willing to unzip a little bit here and show what their history has been and how they might have struggled with having a voice. And what I like to do is to inquire about what their journey has been and that is always something that fascinates me because that’s what my business is about, is people tapping into their potential, discovering who they really are, the truth of who they are and finding a way to express that.

And my new friend Suzannah today, Suzannah Baum, is somebody who has had a journey. In fact, she has a new book and I love the title, Nervous to Nailed It. And we’ll find out more about that, but anybody who’s written a book has a backstory. They didn’t just come out of the womb and say, hey, world, let me teach you something. You know, there is some way in which I’m sure, Suzannah, you’ve had a learning journey and that’s where I’d like to start today, but first I just want to say hello and welcome you.

Suzannah Baum (1:56)

Thank you so much, Dr. Doreen. It’s really lovely to be here and to have connected with you on this level.

Dr. Doreen Downing (2:02)

Yes. We’re both people who love to bring out voice inside of people and in fact, one of your,

I guess you call it a tagline, is find your voice. And guess what? We’re on a podcast.

Find your voice, change your life. So you wrote me a bio and I’d like to read it so that people have a sense of your expertise, you might say. Okay. Yes. Suzannah Baum is a public speaking and presentation skills expert and executive speech coach and author and speaker. She works with business professionals who want to position themselves as leaders by communicating with more, I’m going to say it, confidence, impact, and human connection. I love that part, of course, human connection.

Suzannah is the bestselling author of From Nervous to Nailed It, Find Your Voice, Present with Impact, and Unleash Your Ultimate Speaking Potential. Released in late 2022, it is the quintessential guide for those who are looking to speak up, share their message in a compelling and authentic way, and not feel like they have to hold themselves back anymore. Yes, I understand those words and I’m really glad that you get to share today, but apparently you have a personal note here too. When you live in Montreal and your mom to a 12 year old boy, and you said a two year old budgie, and you always travel with chocolate, but I had to look up what a budgie is. It’s a parrot. Right?

Suzannah Baum (3:46)

It’s like a bird, but quite a bit smaller.

Dr. Doreen Downing (3:50)

Okay. Real tiny. Yes. Really tiny. Yes. Well, hello again, and let’s see where we start is, as I said, it’s more of a first a dive into your early life experience, like how you came into this world and what kind of family surrounded you, because that’s that first kind of reflection, that first mirror of hello world, here I am, and are they saying yay, or did you come out kind of more, you talked about it, shy or quiet. So just anything that comes to you about giving us an insight on your early life.

Suzannah Baum (4:29)

Absolutely. And you said before, we kind of share a tagline about find your voice, and that was not lost on me when we originally connected. And I think going back into the early life, this is maybe where it started, and maybe it was the feeling of lack of a voice, or perhaps even that whatever voice I did share was not really paid attention to quite as much as maybe other family members, or without getting too much into the details of the family, and it was a great family, but everybody has their place and everyone have a personality. And I think part of my family, there was the issue of women’s roles and men’s roles. And sometimes the women’s role was just be quiet, don’t speak up, don’t say anything, don’t start anything, just shh, right? If you’re upset about something, shh, don’t say it. And so when this is how you’re brought up from youth, at the time when you’re young, you don’t know that this is right or wrong, that you should fight back against it, or it was just the way it was.

This was the advice given to me by my mother, which is how it worked in my family. And I listened to my mom, I was a good kid, listened to my mom, and sort of mimicked how she dealt with conflict, or how she dealt with it when she felt that she was not being listened to, was just, well, okay, that’s okay, just push it down and get over it. And so that’s how I grew up. So on top of that, I was quite shy, because I wasn’t really encouraged to speak up, but I think even if I was encouraged to speak up, I was still born shy, born quiet, waiting for a place to welcome me, waiting for my opinion to be welcomed. And when it isn’t, you know, and in this world where you have to sort of take up a little bit more space, and that wasn’t my style. So you get used to it, right? You grow up, you’re shy, quiet. As I said in one of my presentations that’s on my YouTube channel, I felt shy, quiet, and overlooked, and often ignored. But this was the way it had to be. This is the way I ended up feeling more comfortable, because in those moments when I was the center of attention, I didn’t know how to deal with it. So I preferred to be shy, quiet, overlooked, and ignored, and in the corner, right?

Dr. Doreen Downing (7:02 )

Yes. Oh, and taking that space in the corner is more like a hiding position, right? And I like what you said, there’s the context, the family context in which you were getting messages, but then there was also the, what we call it, what is it, the nature and nurture that there’s the environment that affects us, but also what we come into this world with. And so this more quiet nature, and in a family where there wasn’t space, and except for in the corner. I have a question. You said that the message was you better not speak up, you better not, and I’m kind of curious about what would happen if you did?

Suzannah Baum (7:51)

Well, I mean, it wasn’t necessarily always you better not, it was, they highly recommended that I didn’t, because the consequence was just that other people in the family would, the ones who took up more space would get upset with me, and they were, you know, it’s easy, I don’t want to paint this in the wrong way, it was a very loving family, but the overpowering ones are the ones who have a voice and have that strength, can easily overpower the quieter ones and make us go, okay, okay, I’m sorry, okay, okay, I’m sorry, right? Because we don’t, you know, as a person, I, the nurture is, or the nature is that I would want to avoid conflict, right? And you certainly want to avoid conflict when people in the house have louder voices than you do, right, and aren’t afraid to use them, so it became just, you know, be easy to deal with, be easy, don’t make trouble, don’t speak up when we don’t think you should.

Dr. Doreen Downing (8:55)

It’s interesting, because I just had a session with somebody the other day, and they were doing, because I’m a psychologist, I do like to get my fingers in the past, but they said that they had a pretty good family, and they didn’t understand why they were so quiet, how come, and I think you’ve pointed to something, and it came out with this person, is that he was a triplet, and his two sisters, like you say, had louder or more extroverted, and they were able to take up space, so you’re right, you just didn’t get the training, the early physical body of, hello, this is my space, and I can speak up, and I have room, and so I understand what you just said about other people in the space itself already claiming it.

Suzannah Baum (9:48)

Yeah, well, especially, you know, when you’re in a family structure, you know what works to keep this family moving along in a smooth, non-conflict, positive way, so when you act in a way that is, they don’t expect, that, it just, it didn’t work very well.

I was encouraged to stay quiet, and you know, so growing up in the family, that was fine, but then as you get older, and then you have to speak up a little bit more, then you’re in school, then you’re in university, you have to give presentations, you have to speak up, you have to put yourself in the center, and then that’s where it becomes a real challenge, especially in my first few jobs, where I would cling to the quietness, like no, no, no, I’m just quiet, so you do the presentation, you speak up at the meeting, you give the update, and that’s where things started to shift, because that’s when I began to recognize that holding on to, oh, I’m shy and quiet, and that’s just the way I am, that that was not serving me anymore, and I think this is a big problem, even with people that I work with, you know, in a presentation, when they want to feel better about public speaking, they want to get better at their presentations, but very often, they’re stuck in the mindset of, but this is just who I am, so who am I to go outside the nature, right?

Who am I to be who I’m not, and so that is a bit of an issue to deal with, and it was my issue as well at the time, that I had to go through a lot of frustration and watch many of my coworkers move ahead far before me, even though I felt I was equally qualified, simply because they were willing to speak up, whether they felt comfortable or not, I don’t know, but they did it, and that’s what started to make the change with me, that I had to start releasing, not saying that I had to stop being shy or stop, but I had to stop being as quiet as I was, I had to speak up, and I had to push myself and force myself, and it wasn’t always easy, but there were some places that I went and resources available that helped me along that journey.

Dr. Doreen Downing (12:03)

Well that’s where we are right now in terms of transformation, because it seems like so many people I work with that I know have said exactly the same words that you have said, this is just the way I am, and yet there’s more, there’s potential within us, and that’s what transformation and change and finding more inner strength, I think, is about, and that awareness that you said, gee, there are consequences for me being who I am. Yeah.

So what did you, I mean, I got the awareness, the hey, I got to do something about this, but what happened next, I mean, you said you did some, I don’t know, what did you do?

Suzannah Baum (12:46)

Yes, so when I finished university, I had a cousin who lived in California, again, I’m in Montreal, cousin who lived in California, and he was part of a Toastmasters group, and I’d never heard of this group before, and it’s a public speaking group, it helps people feel more comfortable and confident with public speaking and leadership and communications, and he was maybe 15 years older than me, very successful in sales, and at that time, I was in my mid-twenties, I had come back from some travels, I was living with my parents in my late twenties, it was not an easy time for any of us, and struggling a little trying to find my place, where do I work, where do I go, where do I live, and so on, and he at one point said to me, well, why don’t you just try Toastmasters, this has been part of, the learnings from there have taught me how to step outside myself, communicate with more confidence, and so on, and I put that in the back of my head, and I said, well, who has time for a weekly commitment, and I also wasn’t ready to join a group to help me be a better public speaker, because I think sometimes we need a catalyst, right, but it’s hard for us to be preventative and say, yes, because maybe in a year or two, I’ll have a job that will require me to speak.

I didn’t feel that, I thought, well, I don’t need that right now, and so I went through a couple of jobs, and there was one job in particular where I really, it was an IT company, I really liked the boss, really liked the co-workers, I got to my three-month review, and my boss sat down and said, well, listen, can you, I know you want to move forward in this company, I know you want to go from manager to director in marketing, but you can’t unless you’re willing to speak up in meetings, because in this company, we had a weekly meeting where, and I was in the marketing department, and our responsibility, there had to be somebody in each department giving the update, and every week without fail, I would say, why don’t you do it this week, or I’m not in that project, or whatever excuse I could come up with to just get myself out of that, and when I was given the opportunities to speak up, when we were in these meetings, and I would listen to somebody else talk, and I would think to myself, well, I feel like I want to ask a question, but I’m not going to speak up, because I’m sure if somebody, if this was really relevant, somebody else would have asked it, so.

I’m not going to say anything, not going to raise my hand, not going to cause any trouble, right, I’m just going to be the shy quiet one sitting in the corner, and then inevitably, someone else would raise their hand and ask the exact same question that I had in my mind, and they would get all the kudos and all the congratulations for asking such a great question, and this is something that I deal with also with a lot of my clients, when I tell this story of, you know, you know when you’re holding back, you don’t want to speak up, you don’t want to ask the question, because you don’t want to be perceived as dumb, or you don’t want to be judged, or you want to look bad, but then someone else asks the same question, and it’s the right question, and they get all the attention for it, and then you’re left going, well, it was my question, like I should have been the one to ask, right, I should be the one getting the credit, so this is something that so many people.

I mean, when I started sharing that story, when I share that story, when I’m giving a keynote, everybody in the audience is going, yes, everyone’s doing that, right, so that, but that, you know, all those frustrating experiences is what finally led me to go to a Toastmasters group, and just say, okay, well, let me see what this is about, because now I need help, now I’m frustrated, and I’m frustrated enough to try something different, and still, I went to that first Toastmasters group, they made me stand up and introduce myself, I watched a few people give speeches, and then I was like, I am not coming back here, because I was, first of all, terrified, just standing up and introducing myself, and then watching people give speeches, I was like, this is far beyond, they are far beyond what I can do, and so I left, but, you know, time passes, frustrations keep, you know, layering on top of each other, and finally, something else, I can’t even remember what it was that happened that frustrated me so much that made me say, okay, I have to go give it a try, I have to commit for three months, that’s it, just commit and see what happens, because the way it is now, I’m getting nowhere, and that was a big, that was one of the big turning points for me.

Dr. Doreen Downing (17:29)

That is so, what you’re talking about today is the buildup of frustration after frustration, until there’s a readiness, and there’s a push from inside, and even though it sounds like your boss might have said, hey, you need to, it still wasn’t quite enough until you really got inside and said, I, you know, hell no, I can’t take it anymore.

Suzannah Baum (17:52)

I can’t take it anymore, yeah, and it was all my responsibility to do, it wasn’t anyone’s responsibility to promote me, or give me more opportunities before I could show them that I was willing to do something different, that I was willing to step up.

Dr. Doreen Downing (18:08)

Well, before I ask more about that stepping up business, let me take a quick break and we’ll be right back.

Suzannah Baum (18:15)

If you want to get started right away to find your voice, download Doreen’s free seven-step guide to fearless speaking at doreensevensteps.com.

Dr. Doreen Downing (18:24)

Hi, we’re back, Suzannah Baum is telling us about her life journey coming from a quiet little girl, as she was, kind of natural, and in a family where there was not a lot of space for her, but the journey to find her voice is what we’re listening to right now. Hi, Suzannah.

Suzannah Baum (18:47)

Hi there. Hi, Dr. Doreen.

Dr. Doreen Downing (18:50)

So you, you’re talking about the, I guess you might call it, we’ve just described it as frustrations, but the, the waking up that you were doing little by little to say that if life was going to be more for you, you’re the one who had to, as you said, step up.

What happened next?

Suzannah Baum (19:12)

So I joined this Toastmasters group and, you know, and perhaps when I came six months earlier, maybe it just wasn’t the right, I don’t know what made me, I mean, aside from me just not feeling comfortable, when I came back, I still didn’t feel comfortable, but there was something about the group that just worked. I felt the support, I felt the encouragement. When I got up and, you know, gave my, my first speech, it was still terrifying. It really was. But I felt the support of the group, people, there were some people who almost took me under their wing, it felt like. And so at that point, I felt committed to the group, but I enjoyed it. I enjoy, and then it became a regular weekly event that I would go, I would sometimes give a speech, sometimes lead the meeting, sometimes evaluate a speech. There was a lot of different ways that people had to get up and, and speak impromptu and so on. But it was still part of the exercise, right?

I would prepare a speech, I would memorize it, I would script things, there was a lot of that. And I, but I think it was after the second or third speech, what really, what really, the first thing that really changed things for me was that now I was speaking to a group of people who were listening, they were all listening. And this was something that, and I think that’s what made me go back, I mean, the people were wonderful, but all of a sudden, there was this feeling of, okay, so what I’m saying is important. Now, certainly, that’s part of the culture of the group. Whether people were really listening or going through their laundry list, I don’t know. But in the moment, I felt all eyes on me. And they were listening because they were then evaluating afterwards, giving me feedback on what was good, what can be improved. And I really, you know, that that’s the moment where you feel seen, you feel heard. And it was, it was powerful, and made me not want to leave. So that that was a big piece really made me commit into that environment.

Dr. Doreen Downing (21:18)

So finding your voice in that environment is what I’m

Suzannah Baum (21:23)

finding my voice and feeling finally that that people are really paying attention and caring about what I was saying.

Now that the thing that really changed things for me, I mean, really set the entire career.

In this direction that I’m in now, happened about three months into my Toastmasters experience, because I always had this, this inkling, this feeling of God, what, what would it be like to be on stage? Right. And so and for a while, I didn’t know that was that a speaker, or maybe that was an actor, I took acting lessons, there was something in me that wanted to be seen very badly.

And so acting lessons for a few years took that place. And I always thought this concept of being on a stage was very exciting to me. And maybe, you know, as a psychologist, you could say, well, because you didn’t feel seen as much growing up, well, now you want to put yourself or people are forced to look at you.

Maybe that’s maybe we’re going to go there, you know, but so it started with acting. And then, so a few months into this Toastmasters experience, we got a request from the one of the local universities to send over a couple of Toastmasters, a few people in our group to give a half hour presentation on public speaking to an alumni group, a group of people who have already graduated, now they’re working, they’re professionals, and so on.

So I felt very brave after this three months of now being listened to. And I put my hand up along with a few other people. And on this day, I’m standing there watching people walk in, and they’re all in their suits, and they’ve got fancy shoes, and they’re really professional.

And I’m sitting there thinking to myself, what have I done, I can’t talk to this group, what can I possibly teach this group of people, they are, they are graduates, they are super gainfully employed. I mean, just look at them, they came in looking the part.

And so when it, you know, so that the self-talk is going on, and then the other self-talk going, it’s okay, just remember your script, just remember what you want to say, just get out there and do your seven minutes. While I was giving my little seven minute segment, there were these two women in the front row, and I wish I could remember their names, because I would thank them for changing my life. These two women in the front row started listening. And then as I was talking, they both pulled out paper and pen, and they started to take notes on what I was saying. And if I could tell you that that is the exact moment where everything changed for me that just to think that people thought what I was saying was so important that they took a pen, they put it to paper and took notes on it was enough. I mean, that was the night that I ended the night a successful night. And I left going, how do I do this? How do I get there? How do I create a life or a career where that happens?

It was such a meaningful moment for me.

Dr. Doreen Downing (24:21)

Where you have impact, yeah, people value what you’re saying and what you offer. Yeah.

And that’s wonderful. Thank you for sharing that that moment. Well, to move forward now you have what a business teaching people. And it’s about it’s almost it’s ironic that you were asked in that first time to go out and talk about public speaking. And now this book that you’ve written is about public speaking. So talk about that just a little bit. There was something in your book that I you said, let me just look because I wrote a note about commit to well, yes, for those who are listening, it’s a great cover and it’s a great title, by the way, but there was a there was a section in it commit to being you. And that that’s what stood out to me. And of course, that’s what my work is about. And this podcast is about is the commitment to being you. So please say more about that. We’re coming to an end. But I really want to get that in.

Suzannah Baum (25:29)

Absolutely. You know what? So over the years, as we have all sat through presentations of different speakers, very great speakers, not so great speakers. I have seen those speakers get up and they project a certain personality. And then when they’re off the stage, they’re someone completely different. And I never loved that disconnect. I understood why they were doing it. But I didn’t love that disconnect because I didn’t feel like there was an authenticity. And I feel like there are some people who will say, I don’t I’m not that great of a speaker. I’m not that good. I feel like I need to speak like someone else. I need to. I have to be that person, that extrovert, that, you know, person who takes up the space. So it almost feels like I can’t be myself. I need to be somebody different and I need to be that speaker persona. And so when I say commit to being you, it is a commitment to being to accepting how you are. Right.

Whether you’re shy, not shy, whatever it is, but commit to being you on stage and not the speaker persona that you think people need to see, because what people need to see is they need to see you. They need to see your own unique speaking style, your expertise, your way, your personality. That’s what’s really important. And that’s a mindset shift that some of us have to get over. And I was there, you know, at the beginning of my career that I’m not a speaker because I saw that speakers own the stage and how they own the stage. But it’s not always about owning the stage. It’s also about speaking up at a meeting. It’s about speaking to that one person. In front of you, who is, you know, personal or professional, a boss, a client, a teammate, a colleague, it’s about getting your point across and being authentically you at every step and accepting that, you know, maybe you’re not perfect at everything, but again, there’s support and resources to help you along this journey so that you can eventually step up onto a stage or however you’re feeling and just feel like you’re enough. And you have done the work to serve this audience, to create value to the audience in the most authentic, genuine, genuine way possible.

Dr. Doreen Downing (27:56)

Oh, yes. And the you had a story about it, too, around having, you know, probably put on a cloak to look like a speaker. But actually, it didn’t go so well because you weren’t connected to the truth of yourself. Just exactly.

Suzannah Baum (28:13)

I’m glad you read that. Oh, you read that far. That’s later in the book. But yes, one situation where I had someone in mind as I was presenting, I loved the way she presented and I went ahead and I thought I was being myself. But when I saw the video of this presentation, I was almost mortified. I was like, who is this? Who? Like, I didn’t recognize myself. And I and I and I struggled with it. I was like, why did this even happen? And I remembered it’s because the person I had in mind who I was trying to emulate, not copy, but just let me see if I can bring elements of her style in and it just doesn’t work. Right. It doesn’t work. You could love someone’s style, but still just commit it. Learn from them. Learn what it’s great, but commit to being yourself in all aspects and accept that that when you are yourself, like really commit to being yourself, that that the magic will shine through, that the skills and the authenticity will shine through.

Dr. Doreen Downing (29:16)

Oh, I love that phrase, the way you just did it. You know, you will shine through the authenticity and I can feel it with you is like, yes, you’re well, people who are listening can’t see what a wonderful smile and just radiance you have. But I think they could hear it in your voice and the thrill. It just feels like you love what you do since we’re coming to the end. I’d like to give you a little more space to see what wants to come through now to the listeners about what you want to leave them with. Although this last point about being yourself seems to be the main point, but anything else that comes to you?

Suzannah Baum ( 29:59)

Yeah, well, that that last point is important. Just the commitment to being you. I think another point that is important is that, you know, I work across the spectrum of people who have different needs and sometimes people who are struggling with confidence come to me and they’re like, I just need confidence. And there can sometimes be a perception that I help people gain more confidence. It’s not only that it’s to me, confidence is gained when we can look at what we want to present. And, you know, even for those people who are seasoned presenters, they are experienced presenters. They are not dealing with a confidence issue, but they just want to get better. They know they can be better. They know they can connect better with an audience. They can engage them better. There are tools available for this, but ultimately, the commitment is, how can we build a message and share a message and share our expertise in a way that is most valuable for the audience? And so when people deal with confidence issues, it’s not about how can I gain more confidence? You gain more confidence by building a stronger message that is with the audience in mind when you really get into their minds, understand their needs and build the message so that it’s relevant to them. The confidence comes from there because now you’re not just speaking off the cuff or winging it. You are creating a message that is meaningful. And so that’s a lot of where confidence comes from, that we don’t have to hold ourselves back anymore because it’s who we are or because we don’t feel good public speaking or because we don’t want to. It’s not about that. It’s that we all have a unique lives, unique expertise that that needs that just needs to be shared. And we all need to be mindful of taking up the space that we need to take up in order to share this this expertise in this life experience that we have.

Dr. Doreen Downing (31:57)

Yeah, you’ve used a word right now. And I think that’s a good mindset, too, is all we’re asking is that you share yourself and in your book, you have some specific techniques. There is a diamond that in terms of the structure. And I think that both of us together, I talk about the actually the diamond within and there’s or the jewel within and then the finding that voice from within. And what you’ve got is also, well, then how do you structure? How do you externally put together this message that you’re talking about so that both what you’re saying and where it’s coming from feel like they’re both the shine that you just mentioned?

Suzannah Baum (32:44)

Exactly. You know what? The diamond is one of the most useful tools I have ever and I mean, I created it years ago with within a mastermind with help because people needed to hear me talk about it. And it eventually formed and it has helped me with my presentations. I use it with every single client I have because you’re right, there’s we could we could sit here and say, share your voice, share your expertise, get out there and do it. And people will say, OK, but how do I do it? How do I do it? And this is the tool that shares, well, here’s a step by step framework of how and, you know, just a quick story. This morning I had a call with someone who has just such a tremendous depth of expertise in so many different spiritual life aspects. And she was struggling because she wants to speak more. But she said, there’s so much there’s so much that I talk, it gets muddled. And so we need to find the focus of what it is like, you know, really get clear and focused. And once you’re clear and focused on that message, how do you start putting it into a logical, structured, focused and yet still engaging framework? Right. It can be overwhelming. I mean, how do I say what I want to share? Where do I even start? And this is a super useful tool to it’s a roadmap that helps people just it helps them clarify exactly where to go in a presentation. Yes,

Dr. Doreen Downing (34:16)

I understand and that what you just said about, well, somebody could have an inner brilliance and feel like they have confidence from deep inside. But if they don’t have a way to present it logically or in a way that can that the listeners can understand, then it doesn’t have too much impact. But the other way is also if somebody is really good at doing the structure but doesn’t have an inner sense of authenticity. And so I feel like we’ve talked about both sides today. And I really appreciate giving you the platform so that you can share your newest work. I hear that you’re doing an audio version of it.

Suzannah Baum (35:01)

My audio book is on the way. Thank you for noticing that my LinkedIn posts.

Suzannah Baum (35:09)

Yes. I did an audio. I also set up my second bedroom here with blankets and did a I did the recording myself and then now having it produced.

Dr. Doreen Downing (35:20)

So fantastic. Oh, that’s great. Well, you know, with the book, there’s the really people will tell you that they don’t read books. They don’t listen to audio book, but they you know, they don’t like audio books. They need an eBook. They need a real book, you know what? I’ll give you everything. Yes. Let’s just get the message out there that that the book is trying to share. So that’s what it’s about.

Suzannah Baum (35:42)

All right. Thank you so much.

Dr. Doreen Downing (35:44)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here with your with your group and your audience.